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+--- Thread: Poll: Remove ice? (/showthread.php?tid=1139)
Poll: Remove ice? - Jacob_ - 01-09-2019
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RE: Poll: Remove ice? - Cheesse - 01-09-2019
I'd say put a cost to using ice. That way, people aren't using it all the time, and would only use it in important situations. Ice could be sold in the store for 10 points per set of 10, and when the player's ice runs out, it becomes unable to be placed, and the player must buy it again.
RE: Poll: Remove ice? - eo2 - 01-09-2019
I am in favor of removing it completely.
RE: Poll: Remove ice? - Karin590 - 01-09-2019
(01-09-2019, 02:58 PM)Jacob_ Wrote: .
qaz was saying that maybe there should just be a time limit on placing the ice. In addition, she thought a possible compromise could be restrictions on ice placement such as only being able to be placed on the ground or it being unable to be stacked as spammed pillars. I don't even know if you can modify it like this, but I thought I'd just leave her thoughts/opinions since she can't really vote right now.
RE: Poll: Remove ice? - Cheesse - 01-10-2019
It is possible to redefine the ice block on a map-by-map basis, such that certain maps can disable the usage of ice by redefining it as something else. Or, ice can be redefined to make it easier to slip off. It is also possible to reduce the speed of ice.
RE: Poll: Remove ice? - XenonMan - 01-10-2019
Can I get a fleshed out opinion from everyone of what they voted for? My first instinct is to vote no
It's hard to give an opinion without showing any bias but here's my reasoning.
-In every competitve sport, there's always that one player that dominates the game so much that they ruin it for everyone. For example, really tall people were unmatched within the paint because of their ability to score easier over everyone else. To allievate this, the NBA didn't add rules to nerf the tall people but to buff everyone else. They added the 3-point line in basketball because it allowed the smaller people to make plays on the outside and open up the defense. Most importantly, it made basketball more fun to watch and play.To parallel this example to CTF, ice added a layer of DARE I FUCKIN SAY IT skill that makes the game overall faster and challenging to those that use it. So instead of removing it entirely to nerf people that use it, we can think of some buff to new or the real old school players. It doesn't hurt players that use ice, but it opens for more counterplay by other means.
-Ice allows players that use it to have a level of expression in which the game allows you to move how you want at a faster pace. The only limit is your own ability. For example, in a RTS games such as Starcraft and FAF, we're given the options to do any strategies that we want that defines our specific playstyles. Count likes to tech to battlecruisers while I like to attack earlier. That game dynamic that allows for freedom of expression is what makes a game fun. To parallel CTF again and bring up specific examples, stag likes to do this really flashy move in which he quickly builds stairs backwards to get to a position faster, Cheesse likes to play methodical and defensive, and waffle likes to tag. Ice facilitates these playstyles which allows for player expression and again most importantly, fun. Coming back to the first point, we can think of ways to facilitate how we play CTF, so I think that flat-out removing ice doesn't help in that regard.
Overall, here is why I fuckin hate you guys that don't use it so pay attention. What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.
RE: Poll: Remove ice? - steg - 01-10-2019
Since I've seen a lot of discussion on ice, I've decided to input an answer myself.
I don't want this to sound too harsh, but people should learn to adapt to the game now that ice is an available block (and possibly game-changing).
Before the introduction of ice into the game, everything used to be set at the same pace (at least in my perspective). Since the only movement option is walking at the same speed, there really wasn't anything you could do to bolster your speed back then. If there was running in the game, I would have a completely different view on this issue. Unfortunately, that isn't the case.
We've had the same ways of killing: tnt, mining, tagging. Now introduce ice. More strategies are developed on how to counter it, how to use it effectively, etc. I get that some of you play ctf for the "nostalgia" feel when ice wasn't a thing, but now there's a new game changing block. Instead of consantly refuting and rejecting ice, use it to your advantage. You may turn out to enjoy using it. I was reluctant on the fact on using it ever since it was shoved into the inventory, but when I saw how people like BkayB utilized his ice, I decided that ice was the way to go. If you're choosing not to use something that is right in front of you, and see it as a crutch or limitation, that's your problem. If you can't beat them, join them.
I don't know about you, but I'm not a fan of games that tend to last a hour or more.
Remember: this is supposed to be a friendly discussion. Don't devolve to name-calling or pure insults.
EDIT: if there's anyone who doesn't support ice and would like to make a detailed post on why they don't, that would be good. "Being annoying" isn't a valid reason.
RE: Poll: Remove ice? - eo2 - 01-11-2019
I object to the argument that "Ice should exist because it is part of the game" because it wasn't always there. It really hasn't been a part of the game for the majority of CTF, and with the unique community we have in CTF, we can decide exactly what game we want to play. It was not an intentional patch or update of CTF - it was a result of changes to the classicube client that are unlike the original Minecraft Classic. Since we have the ability to take it out, each player should evaluate if they think Ice makes the game interesting, fun, and fair, not just because it exists. I believe that these three criteria best describe how we should evaluate what we want as a part of this niche game that we all play.
I personally don't think it adds to my personal enjoyment, or "fun factor", partially because I find TNT fights the most skillful part of CTF and ice incentives running away more than actual combat. It has been used for tagging, but very few people do that on a consistent basis because it is about as effective and completely dependent on player mistakes as tagging with purple blocks was in the pre-ice era. Ice is used for avoiding fights. It doesn't make the game faster. It makes the players movement variable so that they can more easily avoid one another. I enjoy a game in which I have to play against the enemy team instead of everyone trying to move away from eachother.
Ping differentials can allow players to abuse the powers of ice more than others, making the tool inherently more unfair than the base rules of the game.
I think the strongest argument for ice is that it makes the game more interesting, as it adds an element of skill in how fast players can move across the map. I personally don't think this is the case, but I understand this point of view - I find myself looking for a different set of skills in CTF. In my opinion, ice masks the more important elements of traditional CTF skill, such as TNTing and actual quality mine placement (people don't look around when they use ice so it is really much too easy to just place a mine on the ground and kill someone), as it promotes noninteraction, which is less interesting in my opinion. The strategic diversity that it adds in the chasing and running aspect of CTF already existed with pillaring, except It helps to slow down the game, as it can create near impenetrable flag defenses on certain maps. I also believe that Ice hinders coordinated teamplay by making it extremely difficult to reliably execute on plays due to the extreme variance with which people move.
Those are my gameplay reasons, and I understand that we may have some different opinions, especially on the topic of "interestingness". I think that the removal of ice would help the community in two important ways - making the game easier to understand for new players and making it more nostalgic for old players. Lets be honest - if you were some archaic CTFer returning from the depths of the internet to play this old game on Jacob's CTF, you would not want to play with ice. You would want to play the game you know and love. Additionally, the deceptively simple game has an already enormous learning curve since we are all already quite good at it after playing for years on end. Learning ctf would be significantly easier for new players if the game did not have the mechanic of Ice (as I mentioned before, Ice complicates and promotes non-interaction).
I have read all of the arguments for ice, and have a few counterpoints. Don't pay attention to these as much as my above points.
@Xenon
-This was not an intentional change. Ice was not implemented to stop certain players from being too powerful or to balance certain elements of the game. This relates to my initial paragraph, so I guess look at that. I could have misinterpreted what you meant, so ignore this if that is the case. Sorry
-Styles are not dependent on Ice. Cheesse and Waffle both were able to play extremely similar styles before the era of ice. Your point about more tools allowing for more individualistic expression is a good one and I agree with it in the larger sense (which is why I support the flamethower changes), but in this specific case it doesn't follow. Ice is largely used outside of player interaction and to avoid player interaction. It does not allow people to express a specific play style that they otherwise would be unable to (Waffle and Cheesse both incorporated Ice into their previous play style, as we all had to do), it changes the very nature of the game by incentivizing noninteractive tactics, which are already a significant part of the game through pillaring.
@Steg
- Correct me if I am wrong, but I see two sentences in your post describing why Ice should be in the game.
"We've had the same ways of killing: tnt, mining, tagging. Now introduce ice. More strategies are developed on how to counter it, how to use it effectively, etc. I get that some of you play ctf for the "nostalgia" feel when ice wasn't a thing, but now there's a new game changing block."
• I would like to reiterate my first paragraph in case that is what you mean. We can decide what game we want to play, ice is not an intentional change, etc.
• It is important to distinguish that Ice is not really an alternative to the other aspects of CTF. It does not serve as a 4th kill option. It fundamentally changes all three of those in different ways. I can go into more detail on how for each, but this is a long post and I feel like it is pretty evident if you think about it.
• Ice is a movement tool more than the combat tool. And the only actual counter to ice is really more ice, especially in movement, so I do not believe effective strategies to counter it exist.
• You might make a counterpoint about "icejumping" in combat (jumping off an ice block to increase your tnt reach), but Classic was doing that with purple blocks well before ice was in the game to great success. Most strategies using ice in combat can and were done without ice in the past.
"I don't know about you, but I'm not a fan of games that tend to last a hour or more."
• I don't think games are faster because of ice. I touched upon this above so I won't get into it, but if you still think this, we can discuss it. After all, its kind of difficult to confirm hypotheses about game length.
I hope that you all read my post with an open mind and make your own best judgements based off of my argument and others (sorry mine is so long). As stag said, let's be friendly and not prideful about this.
TL;DR: Ice was not an intentional change. It is mainly a movement tool used for non-interaction between players. Ping differentials are exacerbated. Its combat uses can and have been done in the pre-ice era. Ice makes the game less appealing to new and old old players. Be nice; think with an open mind.
RE: Poll: Remove ice? - XenonMan - 01-11-2019
I WILL HIGHLIGHT ANY CHANGES TO MY FIRST POST SO YOU CAN SEE IF I CHANGED ANY IDEAS IM STILL NOT DONE BTW I GOTTA GO V2
Responding to eo's post. I don't know how to do quote eo's post properly but whatever. I'll just write as I think. I'll try to make my arguments interrogatory to help you with your response
1st paragraph: I can agree with your criteria of what should make the game. Having a game that is interesting, fun, and fair to play and watch is a great basic mission statement to attract new players as well as keep players around. However when you say fairness, I think it's important to define what "fair" is. I think that fairness can be categorized as 3 things.
1. Sameness - The objective of the game is 5 caps to win, tnt, tag, and mine to kill, purple block to detonate TNT. Red or blue team. Now get out there. [Also there's ice]
However, sameness may be a limit on individuality. This goes back to the player creativity I made. In your case eo, you say that the fun and fairness comes from everyone TNT fighting. I'm not entirely sure if that's how you envision the game should be played for everyone when ice is removed, but isn't that a limitation to other players' unique ways of playing the game and completing the main objective of the game? For other players that cannot optimally TNT as well as others, what options are they left with? Killing helps with capping flags but does not solely win you games but you still have to actually cap. I believe that ice helps with maintaining sameness and that the dynamic uses of it can be utilized by BOTH teams which makes ice fair I think.
2. Deservedness - Succeeding through whatever means that you have
Winning CTF through skill, adaptability, dedication, and creativity gives you the deserved win basically. This doesn't apply to the unethical things such as rtv winning and spec dodging because of the dishonorableness. Will games feel deservingly fair when there are less mechanics or more? Will eo find more personal enjoyment of winning because he beat ice users? Let me bring up an old example. When count and I 1v1 in Starcraft 2, a very common strategy he does is building a shitton battlecruisers. Personally, I dislike it because it's annoying. I would say by experience that it's better to find a good way to counter it rather than telling him to stop doing that SAME strategy as it improved my Starcraft 2 knowledge. In the case of ice, it can be seen as an exploitation of a block that wasn't meant to be in the server, but I believe it's not such a groundbreaking mechanic because it challenges my adaptability. It doesn't increase my chances of winning nor is it an honorless block because the other team can place it.
3. Neededness - Do the players that can't use [a game mechanic] (properly) be given some sort of aid at the expense of those can?
Examples of this include Mario Kart's blue shell and rubberbanding or Mario Party on how Bowser punishes the lead player. This goes back to the first point I made in my first post. In CTF, how can a losing team utilize some game mechanic that allows them to catchup? What will the outcomes look like between scenarios with and without ice? One solution to this is any long distance kill such as rocket, but the problem is that the winning team can use it too. Is that a fair thing?
Big Picture Argument:
In any game, casuals that just pick any game up will be turned off when they get steamrolled, as well as experienced players get mad when they lose by thin margins. It's the kind of thing in which losing hurts twice as much as feeling good when winning. As a new player in CTF, you will find yourself in situations that is unfair to you because a new player won't know how to deal with it at first. You die repeatedly mainly by TNT, then you get frustrated as was the case many times. I agree with you that TNT is THE main mechanic to get down in CTF, but would it be unfair for both new and experienced players when they are outmatched and die repeatedly to faster TNT? I think that ice sort of helps with this question. I do agree that ice can be used to escape a fight, but it solves the problem if you ever get killed repeatedly, it's the smarter thing to do in that kind of situation. If I were against someone that outmatches me, why would I subject myself to dueling him when that would hide the main game objective of capping? In the scenario without ice
I don't understand these two statements here: "It doesn't make the game faster. It makes the players movement variable so that they can more easily avoid one another." You literally move faster on ice which movement speed becomes variable. Unless you meant that variable movement is the different directions in which players go, either toward and away from each other. Regardless if ice wasn't there, isn't variable movement around the map a good thing? According to Cheesse, in the case of pillaring,
RE: Poll: Remove ice? - Classic - 01-11-2019
Let's look at CTF as a whole, rather than comparing it to other games because it is unique in its own sense. Firstly, I agree with eo. He brought up a lot of points, which are very true and evident when playing. Everything I am going to say is coming from a non-bias viewpoint, the main aim of the server should be attracting more players not making experienced players even better at the game.
Before ice was even introduced CTF had a lot more new players than it does now, who actually stayed and played. That's a fact. Also another fact, most new players don't use ice when they start playing, until they see or hear about it. Furthermore, even when they do try using it they aren't anywhere as good as the previous 'experienced players'. Why is that? Simple answer, they've mastered the basics aka TNTing, tagging or mining (whatever it may be) really well. If new players can't even master the basics how can you expect them to master ice too? Therefore shouldn't new players be given a easier chance to get use to the basics first, which have always been around? The focus should be on training these new players with TNT, mining and tagging not putting more pressure on them. It takes practice to use ice in an 'attacking' way. But like eo said it's easy to use for running away from attackers, taking the flag or protecting the flag area. How do I know this? Because I am one of the players who does this. I use ice both ways attacking, defending and running away. However, most of the time if i'm being honest it's used more for running away from players. This isn't entertaining, but rather cowardly and I am even saying this about myself.
Ping can also play a huge part in how balanced ice is when you use it. Players' like myself, who have a 120+ ping find it hard to kill players with a much lower ping in the first place, having ice makes killing even more difficult. This may not seem important to you players with a low ping, but it really does make the game unfair sometimes for us higher ping players. Additionally, I don't know if you've noticed this, but it's been around for a while (spoke to unknown about it many times). Basically if you are pillaring while running too quickly with ice on a higher ping, you can fall through blocks much easier. This causes players like myself die in crucial situations, such as carrying the flag. This issue of falling through blocks is more frequent when the speed of the block is increased. It can catch you off guard when you are least expecting it. I'd rather have a level playing ground when it comes to higher ping vs lower ping players. Allowing players to place speed blocks, such as ice, causes uncertainty and helps lower ping users get away from situations far too easily, when they really shouldn't be alive.
Most players who wish to keep ice, are those who have already mastered the skill of using it. Don't get me wrong, ice has a purpose otherwise I wouldn't use it when playing. Although if we are looking at the bigger picture it tends to have more negatives than positives. Just because you enjoy using something doesn't mean it's fair for everyone else or needs to be in the game. When you have some players using it and others not, it creates an unbalanced game in my opinion. I noticed this in the previous tournament facing players like mars, who refuse to use ice and this played a huge part in them losing matches. For instance, if I was to 1vs1 steg and use no ice and he did use ice, you don't need an expert to tell you who would win. Or if new players join and I use ice to dodge their attacks and flag cap, that doesn't really sound fun to me. Before ice was introduced no one really complained at all about the speed of going around maps. I would actually say it encouraged players to be more strategic, like eo said when playing, by using the secret tunnels on maps or creating diversions so someone can grab the flag, even mine placement. Whereas now, it's more about how fast can you ice pillar over the flag and ice pillar back to your side to cap a flag. You may call it skill, but if we are being honest it isn't hard at all to run away on ice with a low ping or high ping.
I know this is a bit off-topic, but it is still relevant I believe. New Blood Zombie Survival has ice as most of you know. I've played there for a few years and I can tell you most players hate it. Funny enough they hate it for the same reasons, it causes uncertainty and an unbalance to the game. Anytime I used ice on it, was to escape players much easier. It's more of a extra perk for those who can use it, than a skill overall.
Like eo said on his last paragraph, let's be open minded and ask what will ice do for the community rather than for individuality.
EDIT: By the way, if you don't remember how fun it was before ice I encourage you to watch the advertising video, which is still on the website beside the login link. The thing Eo said about "icejumping" is demonstrated if you watch the last kill on the video. I am actually pillaring without ice and killing someone from a distance, which backs up what he was saying.