I WILL HIGHLIGHT ANY CHANGES TO MY FIRST POST SO YOU CAN SEE IF I CHANGED ANY IDEAS IM STILL NOT DONE BTW I GOTTA GO V2
Responding to eo's post. I don't know how to do quote eo's post properly but whatever. I'll just write as I think. I'll try to make my arguments interrogatory to help you with your response
1st paragraph: I can agree with your criteria of what should make the game. Having a game that is interesting, fun, and fair to play and watch is a great basic mission statement to attract new players as well as keep players around. However when you say fairness, I think it's important to define what "fair" is. I think that fairness can be categorized as 3 things.
1. Sameness - The objective of the game is 5 caps to win, tnt, tag, and mine to kill, purple block to detonate TNT. Red or blue team. Now get out there. [Also there's ice]
However, sameness may be a limit on individuality. This goes back to the player creativity I made. In your case eo, you say that the fun and fairness comes from everyone TNT fighting. I'm not entirely sure if that's how you envision the game should be played for everyone when ice is removed, but isn't that a limitation to other players' unique ways of playing the game and completing the main objective of the game? For other players that cannot optimally TNT as well as others, what options are they left with? Killing helps with capping flags but does not solely win you games but you still have to actually cap. I believe that ice helps with maintaining sameness and that the dynamic uses of it can be utilized by BOTH teams which makes ice fair I think.
2. Deservedness - Succeeding through whatever means that you have
Winning CTF through skill, adaptability, dedication, and creativity gives you the deserved win basically. This doesn't apply to the unethical things such as rtv winning and spec dodging because of the dishonorableness. Will games feel deservingly fair when there are less mechanics or more? Will eo find more personal enjoyment of winning because he beat ice users? Let me bring up an old example. When count and I 1v1 in Starcraft 2, a very common strategy he does is building a shitton battlecruisers. Personally, I dislike it because it's annoying. I would say by experience that it's better to find a good way to counter it rather than telling him to stop doing that SAME strategy as it improved my Starcraft 2 knowledge. In the case of ice, it can be seen as an exploitation of a block that wasn't meant to be in the server, but I believe it's not such a groundbreaking mechanic because it challenges my adaptability. It doesn't increase my chances of winning nor is it an honorless block because the other team can place it.
3. Neededness - Do the players that can't use [a game mechanic] (properly) be given some sort of aid at the expense of those can?
Examples of this include Mario Kart's blue shell and rubberbanding or Mario Party on how Bowser punishes the lead player. This goes back to the first point I made in my first post. In CTF, how can a losing team utilize some game mechanic that allows them to catchup? What will the outcomes look like between scenarios with and without ice? One solution to this is any long distance kill such as rocket, but the problem is that the winning team can use it too. Is that a fair thing?
Big Picture Argument:
In any game, casuals that just pick any game up will be turned off when they get steamrolled, as well as experienced players get mad when they lose by thin margins. It's the kind of thing in which losing hurts twice as much as feeling good when winning. As a new player in CTF, you will find yourself in situations that is unfair to you because a new player won't know how to deal with it at first. You die repeatedly mainly by TNT, then you get frustrated as was the case many times. I agree with you that TNT is THE main mechanic to get down in CTF, but would it be unfair for both new and experienced players when they are outmatched and die repeatedly to faster TNT? I think that ice sort of helps with this question. I do agree that ice can be used to escape a fight, but it solves the problem if you ever get killed repeatedly, it's the smarter thing to do in that kind of situation. If I were against someone that outmatches me, why would I subject myself to dueling him when that would hide the main game objective of capping? In the scenario without ice
I don't understand these two statements here: "It doesn't make the game faster. It makes the players movement variable so that they can more easily avoid one another." You literally move faster on ice which movement speed becomes variable. Unless you meant that variable movement is the different directions in which players go, either toward and away from each other. Regardless if ice wasn't there, isn't variable movement around the map a good thing? According to Cheesse, in the case of pillaring,
Responding to eo's post. I don't know how to do quote eo's post properly but whatever. I'll just write as I think. I'll try to make my arguments interrogatory to help you with your response
1st paragraph: I can agree with your criteria of what should make the game. Having a game that is interesting, fun, and fair to play and watch is a great basic mission statement to attract new players as well as keep players around. However when you say fairness, I think it's important to define what "fair" is. I think that fairness can be categorized as 3 things.
1. Sameness - The objective of the game is 5 caps to win, tnt, tag, and mine to kill, purple block to detonate TNT. Red or blue team. Now get out there. [Also there's ice]
However, sameness may be a limit on individuality. This goes back to the player creativity I made. In your case eo, you say that the fun and fairness comes from everyone TNT fighting. I'm not entirely sure if that's how you envision the game should be played for everyone when ice is removed, but isn't that a limitation to other players' unique ways of playing the game and completing the main objective of the game? For other players that cannot optimally TNT as well as others, what options are they left with? Killing helps with capping flags but does not solely win you games but you still have to actually cap. I believe that ice helps with maintaining sameness and that the dynamic uses of it can be utilized by BOTH teams which makes ice fair I think.
2. Deservedness - Succeeding through whatever means that you have
Winning CTF through skill, adaptability, dedication, and creativity gives you the deserved win basically. This doesn't apply to the unethical things such as rtv winning and spec dodging because of the dishonorableness. Will games feel deservingly fair when there are less mechanics or more? Will eo find more personal enjoyment of winning because he beat ice users? Let me bring up an old example. When count and I 1v1 in Starcraft 2, a very common strategy he does is building a shitton battlecruisers. Personally, I dislike it because it's annoying. I would say by experience that it's better to find a good way to counter it rather than telling him to stop doing that SAME strategy as it improved my Starcraft 2 knowledge. In the case of ice, it can be seen as an exploitation of a block that wasn't meant to be in the server, but I believe it's not such a groundbreaking mechanic because it challenges my adaptability. It doesn't increase my chances of winning nor is it an honorless block because the other team can place it.
3. Neededness - Do the players that can't use [a game mechanic] (properly) be given some sort of aid at the expense of those can?
Examples of this include Mario Kart's blue shell and rubberbanding or Mario Party on how Bowser punishes the lead player. This goes back to the first point I made in my first post. In CTF, how can a losing team utilize some game mechanic that allows them to catchup? What will the outcomes look like between scenarios with and without ice? One solution to this is any long distance kill such as rocket, but the problem is that the winning team can use it too. Is that a fair thing?
Big Picture Argument:
In any game, casuals that just pick any game up will be turned off when they get steamrolled, as well as experienced players get mad when they lose by thin margins. It's the kind of thing in which losing hurts twice as much as feeling good when winning. As a new player in CTF, you will find yourself in situations that is unfair to you because a new player won't know how to deal with it at first. You die repeatedly mainly by TNT, then you get frustrated as was the case many times. I agree with you that TNT is THE main mechanic to get down in CTF, but would it be unfair for both new and experienced players when they are outmatched and die repeatedly to faster TNT? I think that ice sort of helps with this question. I do agree that ice can be used to escape a fight, but it solves the problem if you ever get killed repeatedly, it's the smarter thing to do in that kind of situation. If I were against someone that outmatches me, why would I subject myself to dueling him when that would hide the main game objective of capping? In the scenario without ice
I don't understand these two statements here: "It doesn't make the game faster. It makes the players movement variable so that they can more easily avoid one another." You literally move faster on ice which movement speed becomes variable. Unless you meant that variable movement is the different directions in which players go, either toward and away from each other. Regardless if ice wasn't there, isn't variable movement around the map a good thing? According to Cheesse, in the case of pillaring,
![[Image: hR2iHUq.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/hR2iHUq.jpg)
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